Speaker 1 0:00 From the heart of the Ohio State University on the Oval, this is Voices of Excellence from the College of Arts and Sciences, with your host, David Staley. Voices focuses on the innovative work being done by faculty and staff in the College of Arts and Sciences at The Ohio State University. From departments as wide ranging as art, astronomy, chemistry and biochemistry, physics, emergent materials, mathematics and languages, among many others, the college always has something great happening. Join us to find out what's new now. David Staley 0:31 Joining me today is Amy Youngs, who is an Associate Professor in the Department of Art at The Ohio State University College of the Arts and Sciences. She creates biological arts, interactive sculptures and digital media works that explore relationships between technology in our changing concept of nature and self, and her research interests include interactions with plants and animals, constructed ecosystems, and seeing through the eyes of machines. We're going to talk about each of those in turn, I hope, she is exhibited her work internationally from New Zealand to Norway, and here in Columbus at the Urban Arts Space. Welcome to Voices, Professor Youngs. Amy Youngs 1:12 Thank you for having me, David. David Staley 1:13 I'm happy you're here. And I know this is going to be a challenge for both of us, because given that you're a visual artist, I'm going to ask you in this medium of the podcast to describe your work to us in words and don't know how easy or difficult that might be. So, your newest installation is called "Grasping Permeability", and I was wondering if you would tell us about this project? Amy Youngs 1:33 Yeah, so this is currently on display at The Ohio State University Urban Arts Space. David Staley 1:38 Oh, excellent. Downtown? Amy Youngs 1:39 Yes, downtown Columbus, which is a faculty exhibition, and it gives us a chance to show each other what we're up to and show our students what we do with our research. The project is actually my very first virtual reality artwork. David Staley 1:53 Oh, interesting. Amy Youngs 1:54 Yeah. So, what I'm experimenting with there is the ability to try to get inside of landscapes. So, I had done a year long residency in New York City last year, and really focused on an urban park there called Flushing Meadows, Corona Park, and I took a lot of photographs. And at first I thought, I'll print these photos out, and it will be a part of my exhibition, and then I realized, I wanted something much more embodied, and virtual reality can give you that sense. David Staley 2:25 When you say embodied, what does that mean to you? Amy Youngs 2:27 I wanted you to feel like you were inside of the photographs, rather than looking at them, that you would be a part of them. David Staley 2:34 So, tell us about the installation then and how you're using VR. Amy Youngs 2:37 Yeah, so I have the virtual space that you can enter with the VR goggles and the little handheld controllers, which I call graspers, because you can grab things in virtual space. And then I also have an installation element with actual dried plants that are hanging in the installation that are related to the site, where they have a real problem with an invasive species called Phragmites, which I learned all about while I was there. So, that species is there in the space, you can feel it, you can touch it, you can smell it. David Staley 3:11 And you're just talking virtually, these are actual objects, right? Amy Youngs 3:14 Yeah. They're both in the virtual and the actual space. David Staley 3:16 That's interesting. So what's virtual then in this installation? Amy Youngs 3:19 So the photographs have been sort of mapped into a three dimensional space, so you, you feel like you're there and you see these photographs as almost objects that you can pick up and move around and get inside of. There's a permeability to it, there's seethrough elements. So, you can look through things to other things. So you can see, say, the, the freeway that exists right there at the edge of the park, and that's part of the piece as well. David Staley 3:48 When you say there's actual objects, was it your interest to sort of explore this, what, this relationship between physical objects and virtual objects? Was that part of what this project was about? Amy Youngs 3:58 Yeah, it's about thinking about representation, and how do we represent a self and other in a sense, and my sense of self being in that park is what I wanted to try to reproduce in a new location. So, by object I really mean a sense of a place, which maybe really isn't objects? So yeah, it's maybe a lack of imagination on the part of virtual reality to sort of think about objects. I'm thinking about senses of place and self in that place. David Staley 4:30 You said this was your first attempt, or your first time using VR as a medium. What brought you to VR? Why now? Amy Youngs 4:36 Yeah, good question. Well, I was interested in it much earlier way back in the 90s. I didn't have the ability to work in it at that point. It's very expensive, then, but it always fascinated me to experience myself in an unusual way. It was something that gives you like that uncanny valley sense of yourself. All of a sudden you're not who you think you are or what you think you Aren't you could move in space in different ways. So disrupting my sense of self was always interesting to me. And for me, now it's available. So this kind of headset is only $400, it's completely wire free, it's not uncomfortable to wear. So it feels finally like a good time to explore that medium. David Staley 5:20 Your work has explored space before, actual physical space. I know you do work like in ecosystems, for instance. Does this sort of grow out of that interest of that work? Amy Youngs 5:29 It does. I'm very interested in having a sense of myself in the ecosystem, which is something that I feel like I have to construct myself. As an artist, it's really difficult to feel like I'm a part of nature, even though I know I am. And I'm interested in how do I replicate that feeling for myself and for other people with my installations that I've built? David Staley 5:55 Well, let's talk about this because you do a fair amount of work in what you term biological art, first of all, will tell us what biological art is, and then give us some examples. Amy Youngs 6:04 Yeah, it's art that uses biological materials as an art form. So, typically, we think of art as something that's static that lasts forever, that's fixed in time, and bio art is short for biological art is something that is a process that's ongoing, potentially, and it uses biological materials, maybe cells or animals or plants. In my case, I often work with worms and plants. David Staley 6:32 Worms? Amy Youngs 6:33 Yes. David Staley 6:34 You work with worms. All right. How do you work with worms? Amy Youngs 6:37 Well, it comes from a long standing relationship I've had with worms, they compost my waste my food and paper waste in my house for many years, and it was something that I felt changed my sense of being embedded in any ecosystem. Because typically, we don't think about where our waste goes, but when you keep worms, you do think about that. You think, wow, what can my worms eat? Can they eat a styrofoam egg container? No. If you put that in the bin, you will find it at the end. But almost anything else that's biodegradable, you'd find turned into beautiful soil. So, that process was very fascinating to me, and I wanted to share it with others in my work. David Staley 7:20 So tell me how you use worms in your artwork. Amy Youngs 7:24 An early project I did was to help people to hear the worms using technology. So, oftentimes, I'm working with technology to amplify systems that might be a little bit hard or invisible to see, see or hear in this case, I used microphones, and embedded them into the soil where worms were processing food waste, and amplify them so that you could feel them with your body and hear them doing their work. David Staley 7:51 Hear them? Amy Youngs 7:53 Yeah. David Staley 7:53 What would we hear? Kind of like... *mimicking worm noises*...yeah. Like they're consuming? Amy Youngs 7:59 Yeah. Moving through the dirt. They're very active, and I mean, it's an incredible thing. It's more efficient than traditional composting to work with worms to compost. So they're very active. David Staley 8:11 When you say you could feel this as well, how would I feel it as a viewer of this work? Amy Youngs 8:16 Yeah. So in the installation, I built a human sized couch that you would lay on, and it was shaped like a worm. So you could also feel like a worm in a sense, and embedded in that couch were eight different speakers that would transmit the sound of the worms from eight different locations in the worm bin. And they were amplified, so you could feel them on your body. David Staley 8:37 You had talked about that bio art, biological art is evanescen. I suppose. It's not permanent, it's not there forever. Is that true of this work? And if so, what happens to the worms? What happens to these living creatures? Amy Youngs 8:51 Yeah, that's a very good question. With my installations, that particular one has been exhibited in a lot of different places, and each time I tried to find homes for the worms, with the idea that I'll also share worm composting with people in other places. And so, that's worked out very well, I give them away and I explained to people how to care for them. And they're are a renewable resource, so you can always give them to people, and they will continue to multiply in the way that they do as long as you feed them. So yes, I still have the sculpture, but the worms are now in a different kind of worm bin, that's a little easier to care for. David Staley 9:28 Have you done other sorts of projects involving worms? Amy Youngs 9:30 Yes, many actually, I've continued to make projects with the worms. Because a lot of the response to that project was that people felt that they were experiencing their own death in a sense, where they were thinking about the worms eating their bodies. So, it was an embodied experience that I didn't expect, and that surprised me and it got me thinking about how I could have people experience worms in a different cultural context than death. And the next project they'd made was called digestive table, and in this project you eat at a table that's designed as a worm bin. So, the worm bin is built into the table. David Staley 10:10 When you say "you", you mean me as a viewer? I'm eating? Amy Youngs 10:13 You. Yes, you could eat there with the worms. And there's a portal in the middle of the table where you could put your food waste, and feed the worms, and they would be eating there right under the table with you. And you could visibly see them on a security camera system, so you could watch them. David Staley 10:29 So are you providing the food or is this me bringing my brown bag lunch? Speaker 2 10:32 Yes, I think, yeah, depending on where I've shown it, I actually used to have it set up at my house so that you know, you could actually do it in my house. In the galleries, it would be more like people could bring their lunch. David Staley 10:44 Was that you were talking about egg cartons, for instance, in your own composting, you sort of see what worms won't eat. Is that part of this artwork here that, depending on what I bring, literally bring to the table, I'm learning something about what worms can digest or not digest? Amy Youngs 10:59 Yes. And yes, indeed. And you're also learning about things like where your soil comes from, you know, things that might seem gross to be eating at a table with worms and dirt, and waste. But in fact, I, for me, it was interesting to think about how to change our notion of waste, that people would say, Well, I don't want worms to be touching my food and you know, like, like thinking, Well, you know, you carrots, and that's coming from dirt and worms are making the nutrients for that. So I think it's meant to change our sense of what is gross and what is not. David Staley 11:36 Other projects with worms? Amy Youngs 11:39 Yes, so another project I did was called "The Machine for Living Interdependently", and in that project, I set it up so that it would live in my office or in my home and a domestic space, and it would be powered entirely by rocking in a rocking chair. And in this project, it's based off of a concept I call vermaponics, which is kind of like hydroponics except that instead of feeding your water, nutrients to grow your plants, the nutrients are not coming from petrochemicals, which is typical with hydroponics. In this system, the worms are actually feeding the nutrients to the plants, and the water is circulating through the system, not by pumps, but instead by the motion of you rocking in a chair. So you're a part of that system that's feeding the plants and watering the plants, and then you also feed your food waste in your say, if you're reading a newspaper, and you're done, you can shred it up and put it in the worm bin part of the system. David Staley 12:43 These.... and forgive me - these sound almost like science experiments. I wonder if there is a difference, I suppose between what you're doing as an artist and say what a scientist might do and studying worms. Amy Youngs 12:55 I'm not sure if there is a difference. I mean, I know I'm not a scientist. David Staley 12:58 So what does that mean? Amy Youngs 12:59 Yes. I know, I'm very interested in science and I'm interested in exploring alternative ways of working with living things, learning new things from them. And I think that I share that kind of curiosity with scientists. David Staley 13:16 Because you're working with living things, are you ever confronted or do you think at all about ethical questions around working with living organisms? Amy Youngs 13:24 I definitely do. Yeah. And working with worms, there are not like legal ethical issues, because they don't have a backbone. So as a university researcher, I'm allowed to work with creatures that don't have a backbone. David Staley 13:38 I had no idea. Amy Youngs 13:38 Yes, I did propose a project once that involved pigeons, and the idea of reconnecting with our original connection that we had with pigeons, which was that we ate them, they were part of our agricultural. And I thought, well, that would be an interesting way to to deal with the problem of feral pigeons that we have. And typically, we're dealing it with poisons, and I thought there might be other ways like we could have pigeon barbecues. But then it turned out to be very complicated to get an Animal Care and Use Committee approval, have that kind of thing. So, you know, I didn't do it. I guess the other thing about ethics, though, is I still do think about my personal feelings about using worms and my work, and I definitely try to care for them well, and I think that my relationship with them grows deeper as I work with them, and I care more about them and I want to share them with more people so that they propagate further, in a sense. So yeah, I guess I do still really have an ethical care for the things I work with. Janet Box-Steffensmeier 14:50 Did you know that 23 programs in the Ohio State University College of Arts and Sciences are nationally ranked as top 25 programs, with more than ten of them in the top ten? That's why we say the College of Arts and Sciences is the intellectual and academic core of the Ohio State University. Learn more about the College at artsandsciences.osu.edu. David Staley 15:14 We used the term earlier ecosystems or ecosystem artworks, and presumably that's a kind of bio art. But I wonder if you just sort of tell us more about what's meant by ecosystem artworks? Amy Youngs 15:27 Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of overlap with bio art and ecosystem art, and I like to feel like I'm playing in both areas. Maybe I think of ecosystem artwork as a little bit broader. It looks at systems rather than individual organisms say, it's not so concerned with, say, genetic engineering and things like that a lot of bio artists are very interested in working in petri dishes and changing organisms, and growing small things and organisms. And I'm trying to think a little bit bigger, which is why sometimes I use eco art as a way of describing the work because I'm looking at the systems that those organisms might be connected to, and then say, in the case of the worms, systems of waste, and growth and food and reprocessing. David Staley 16:21 So you're also interested in technology, I suppose. As I was introducing you, I said that one of your research interests was seeing through the eyes of machines, and I wonder if you give us a sense of what that means. Amy Youngs 16:32 Yeah, I feel like I do a lot of seeing through the eyes of machines. When I look through my cellphone camera all the time. I originally used that phrase, because I was very fascinated with webcams. In the early 2000s, I was out crazy webcam, watcher and I did some art projects about webcams, and that ability to see a great distances as an individual and being able to connect to places that aren't here and feel like I'm a part of them, even though I'm not. So it's an extended sense of self, that I feel that in a sense we all have now, even if we're not webcam watchers, we're watching things on our screens all the time. So we're seeing in a particular way through machines, and I'm trying to use that in the work times to help us see not just visions of consumerism and visions of fancy vacations. But what if we saw things like beautiful trees and insects and the world that builds up ourselves and that we are interdependent with? So, I'm trying to see through machines for maybe different purposes than business and commerce does, which is why I'm an artist. David Staley 17:48 Well, as I was introducing you, I talked about your research interests. My suspicion is that some people thought, wait a minute, research in art, you're a researcher? what does that mean? What does it mean to do research in art? Amy Youngs 17:59 Yeah, it's a pretty broad, open ended place to be. And I love it for that. David Staley 18:02 I have lots of researchers on this show, but so few artists, what does it mean to do research in art? Amy Youngs 18:06 Yes. I'm doing new things, and not necessarily things that fit into market driven systems that art might be connected to like oftentimes, when people think about art, they're thinking about how much money Jeff Koons piece sold for, or the latest Van Gogh pricing and Sotheby's and those are things that are not at all interesting to me. And thinking about how art is a form that can be used in unusual ways to allow new things to be possible in the world. David Staley 18:41 As an artist, you're obviously very creative, and I'm interested in something about your creative process. Where do your ideas come from? Working with worms, for instance, where did... where did these ideas come from? Amy Youngs 18:52 The worm project was pretty much just me living my life, enjoying my worms, being fascinated with them and wondering why nobody else was fascinated with them, and wondering how I could share that fascination. So, I have a sense of interest in something worms or crickets, insects, dirt, and I want to share it. And so, with the worms, I thought, I feel like I'm hearing them, but I'm not sure, and so I had a question. Can you hear worms? And that question led me to trying to understand how to work with soil microphones and try to amplify worms. It was a question that I had and wanted to share with other people. David Staley 19:36 So is that the genesis of a lot of your works? Does it start with a question? Amy Youngs 19:41 It does, yeah. It's a question I'm asking myself, about myself in the world and interactions with other living things, kind of a sense of wonder and a sense of questioning that is open ended and I want it to be in a sense, I want those things to matter, and not just be thought of as something that is for children to play with. And I think a sense of wonder and a sense of care about other living things shouldn't just be for children. David Staley 20:12 It also sounds like you have a really deep curiosity, and I wonder if that's a requirement for art for creativity? Amy Youngs 20:18 That's a great question. I would assume that it would be, but I would also assume that everybody has it. Is that true? Do you think that's true, is that your experience? I don't... you know, I don't know, I'm actually co teaching a class right now with a scientist, and she also has a deep sense of curiosity. I don't think I'm alone in this. David Staley 20:36 Tell me more about this class that you're teaching with a scientist, that sounds fascinating. Amy Youngs 20:40 It's wonderful. It's really my favorite class. Dr. Iris Meier in molecular genetics and I have developed a relationship over say, five or six years now, where we co develop a class that relates to both of our research, and then we co teach that class together. We actually do science experiments in the science labs, and we understand the science of plants. And the research that she's doing, we actually had the students design their own experiments this time, and then based on those experiences, we have the students all together, we're actually trying to do this with both of us as teachers and the students. We're trying to develop an interactive installation that shares that kind of sense of wonder, curiosity about science and creativity. And in this particular sense, plants, were really trying to share plants with our art audience. Who are the students, are they scientists and artists? Yes. Mostly we have artists, we still have a couple of science students, apparently, they don't have as much flexibility in their schedules to take a class like this. But we typically have a couple of them. David Staley 21:56 What motivated you to co teach this class? Amy Youngs 22:00 Well, a lot of other universities and researchers that I'm interested in, have art programs that have science labs connected to them. So that's the bio art part, and I thought, well, I don't need to develop my own lab, I could actually work with a scientist who already has a lab in Ohio state already has those facilities. So, it was a motivation for me to try to get access to that world and also understand it better. That was a real motivation. And on her end, she was motivated to think about how arts could help her and her research and help, in a way share the research with the world. David Staley 22:44 What other classes do you teach? Amy Youngs 22:46 I also teach digital imaging in art and technology and moving image art, and oftentimes, I'm teaching a kind of studio practice class with our seniors. David Staley 22:57 Tell me about art and technology. What's that class? Amy Youngs 23:00 Yeah, so art and technology is an area that uses technology as a creative form. So, we try to think about ways that say Photoshop might be used to create art rather than advertising or you know, other things like that. So, we're sharing our knowledge of technology with the students and our knowledge of alternative ways to work with technologies. We also in that area have robotics. I don't teach that, but we have new media robotics that Ken Rinaldo teaches, we also have things like art games, so people can develop games, video games, and they can also develop animations and 3d models and rapid prototypes. So, all manner of technologies that can be used creatively. David Staley 23:50 What are you working on now? What's next for you? Amy Youngs 23:52 That's a good question. You know, I just finished developing an app as an artwork called "Becoming Biodiversity". David Staley 24:00 Tell us about that, yes. Amy Youngs 24:01 That project was very fascinating for me, because it locates the artwork in a place and allows people to experience an urban park, using an app, they can know more about that park, and in a sense, become some of the animals and plants that are there in the park through augmented reality. David Staley 24:24 So what happens when I download this app on my phone? What would I be experiencing? Amy Youngs 24:29 You would experience the world as if you're a plant and as if you're a bird. David Staley 24:35 What does it mean to experience the world as a plant? Amy Youngs 24:36 Well, when you're a plant, you aren't moving, really, but you're moving the world around you so you can emit chemicals that attract birds that might help you with your pest problem. Birds that might eat the caterpillars that are chewing on your leaves. So, you would know more about that world through the app, and you could see the chemicals and call out to the bird. David Staley 24:59 Yeah, what am I looking at on my phone, how is this communicating with me? Amy Youngs 25:03 The augmented reality part would show you what you're seeing through your camera. So, you'd see the actual park, but you would see an overlay of chemicals that are animated in a sense. So, you could see, you know, sort of my imagination as an artist of what chemicals floating through the air might look like. David Staley 25:22 And is there another project that you're at work on right now? Amy Youngs 25:26 That project has led me to start thinking about how I can do this and other places? So yeah, so the benefit of that project is that it's site specific, and it doesn't require a gallery to experience this art. The drawback is that you have to be in Flushing Meadows Park in New York to do it. So, my thought now is to develop a project like that, but somewhere here in Columbus, and I'm very motivated to do this in outdoor spaces. David Staley 25:58 Amy Youngs. Thank you. Amy Youngs 26:00 Thank you. Eva Dale 26:01 Voices from the Arts and Sciences is produced and recorded at The Ohio State University College of Arts and Sciences Technology Services studio. Sound engineering by Paul Koetheimer. Produced by Doug Dangler. I'm Eva Dale. Transcribed by https://otter.ai