Eva Dale 0:00 From the heart of the Ohio State University on the Oval, this is Voices of Excellence from the College of Arts and Sciences, with your host, David Staley. Voices focuses on the innovative work being done by faculty and staff in the College of Arts and Sciences at The Ohio State University. From departments as wide ranging as art, astronomy, chemistry and biochemistry, physics, emergent materials, mathematics and languages, among many others, the college always has something great happening. Join us to find out what's new now. David Staley 0:33 Joining me today in the ASC Tech Studios is Doug Alsdorf, Professor in the School of Earth Sciences at The Ohio State University, College of the Arts and Sciences. His areas of expertise include satellite hydrology, large tropical wetlands, and geophysics. Welcome to Voices, Dr. Alsdorf. Doug Alsdorf 0:51 Thank you very much for inviting me. I appreciate being here with you, David. David Staley 0:54 So, we were talking before we started recording, and you had said something of the effect of, unlike applied science or engineering, you engage in discovery science, which is fascinating, I think. So, start off by telling us, what do you mean by discovery science? Doug Alsdorf 1:13 So, I teach my students in the large classes that we have - and I teach a number of these large introductory courses -and I teach them that scientists want to discover things, that's what motivates us to go out and make a new discovery, whereas applied scientists, and particularly engineers, take our discoveries and turn them into something of use for society. So, I'm driven by curiosity. I'm simply wondering, why is that there, what is that over there? I want to go study it, and so, that's discovery. I'm classically trained in this by my advisor at Cornell, who has since died years ago, but he discovered what we call subduction zones in plate tectonics, and so... David Staley 1:59 I know that! Doug Alsdorf 1:59 Yes, exactly. So, we do this with our hands, and for those - I'm just moving one hand underneath the other, and that's called a subduction zone. And Jack discovered these, prior to his discovery with his two students, Bryan Isacks and Lynn Sykes, back in the 60s, we didn't know they existed. So, those deep trenches where they take the submarines down miles deep - that's where subduction zones are, and he discovered them, and he trained us as his students to seek this joy of discovery. Is that what you mean by curiosity? Yes. David Staley 2:30 How would you define curiosity? Doug Alsdorf 2:34 Some people are just naturally curious, right, and others can be trained. I would say I'm more trained to be curious, to observe, to look, to wonder, to ask, why is that there, and to then go and sort of figure that out. Why is that there, what is it doing, wow does it behave, whatever that thing is. And of course, as a natural scientist, as an Earth scientist, these will be things that we can all see with our own eyes, those sorts of things. David Staley 3:00 Maybe this is unfair to the students, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you find your students to be curious? Doug Alsdorf 3:05 I find my students to be a wonderful mix of students who are truly, keenly interested, they are curious, totally engaged, to those who, quite honestly, are trying to achieve a degree and move on with their lives, right? And so, and they're all quite a wonderful mix. I don't require attendance, and so the students who do come to class - of course, the lectures are recorded, so many watch online - I find that many students are caught up in the moment of trying to simply get through their degree progress, and what I try to do is engage them to think. I tell them all, what I'm trying to do with you is teach you how to think. It's a very deep challenge for us, and I say one of the important steps in thinking is to be curious, is to look at something and say, that's interesting, I wonder if it's really like that. David Staley 3:55 I've never phrased it that way, but that's how I try to approach my teaching as well. Are you... how do I phrase this... are you an anomaly? In other words, are most scientists, sort of, curiosity driven, or discovery scientists, or is the pressure now that you be applied scientists to produce intellectual property? Doug Alsdorf 4:14 Yeah, you know it's been an age old thing where "publish or perish" is our lifeblood. The coin of the realm, so to speak, is publications, and so, young scientists who are starting their careers get caught up in the thou shalt publish. And it becomes rather pragmatic to sit down and say, oh, I gotta publish this, gotta publish this, and you get caught up in this, this treadmill of trying to achieve your publication, and along the way, it is easy to sort of lose the curiosity, to get caught up in the, well, what do I have to do to get this faculty job? What do I have to do to get tenure? What do I have to do to get the next promotion I need to do? What I have to do to get this grant? And it's easy, then, to get caught up in that. It's easy to get caught up in the ideas that you must be doing something of value for society, and those are deep challenges for us, and to be sure, we want to do things that are of value to society. And so, yes, it is a challenge for us. David Staley 5:14 Well, let's talk about some of your curiosity, then. I introduced you as someone who works in satellite hydrology, and I want to hear more about this, but maybe start with a definition of what hydrology is. Doug Alsdorf 5:25 So, hydrology, in its simplest terms, is the study of water, and of course, water is obviously fundamental to life. You know, water and air: these are the two most basic things that every human being needs, and every animal and so on. So, hydrology is the study of water; in particular, movement of that water throughout the earth from the atmosphere, mostly out of the atmosphere, once it rains, then the hydrologist takes over. How's that water moving over the land surface? Where is it going on the land surface? Is it being absorbed into plants and emitted back through evapotranspiration? Is the water being soaked into the ground or running off the land? That's hydrology. And you use satellites, presumably? Yeah, sattelites are fascinating. You know, satellites really came to the fore starting, about, in the 90s, in the 90s, and I was just sort of in the middle of finishing my PhD right about then. And so, the satellite technology came along, and basically it allowed us to, in a very crude sense, take pictures of the Earth, and these pictures then evolved into measurements of the earth, and in particular, measurements of the water itself. And a scientist... and so to break it down for everyone here, as I teach my students, all scientists everywhere, all science, whether you're a biologist, a chemist, a physicist, you do one of two things, or both: you collect measurements, or you create models, or you do both. And so, satellites allowed us as hydrologists to collect measurements all over the earth of aspects of water, and so it was really wonderful to have that data available to us. So, they are measuring tools. David Staley 7:05 And how do the satellites do that? What are they measuring? Doug Alsdorf 7:07 So, you can envision the most straightforward one, which would be what you see on Google Earth, which would be our optical satellites, essentially a camera up in space, like your iPhone camera, taking high resolution pictures of the Earth, and that will show us where the water is. Where is the river? Where is the lake? How wide is the river? Is it a big lake, that sort of thing. We can get those sort of area measurements from a visible band, is what we call it, from an optical satellite. There are other types of satellites; one in particular - this is a long winded word here, here we go - synthetic aperture radar, the acronym is SAR, SAR synthetic aperture radar, and this is effectively a grayscale image of the earth. It's a black and white picture of the earth, but instead of using visible band, it uses a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. It's even hard for me to say, but it emits a pulse of radar, and that pulse of radar interacts with the Earth's surface, sometimes scattering in different directions, and so some surfaces will look really dark, some will look very bright, and that's a different sort of measurement than a visible band spectrum. And so, it's another way of measuring the Earth's surface. One more thing to add into this mix is that we can also measure the elevation of the water surface from a satellite, and that's essentially sending out a pulse of radar and measuring the amount of time it takes for that radar pulse to travel from the satellite to the water surface and back, and then we can calculate distance from that, so it gives us elevation. David Staley 8:39 And what's the advantage then, of satellites? What is it that hydrologists can learn now that they couldn't before satellites? Doug Alsdorf 8:47 Well, for one thing, satellites allow us to reach into places that are very difficult to go to, usually the remote places, and amongst the most remote is the Amazon, which I've studied, and the Congo, which I've also studied. And satellites allow us to reach into the wetland areas, we've all seen the sort of stereotypical view that we have of the Amazon, with these huge, massive forests with leaves everywhere and wet, you know, water areas everywhere, and it's really just incredible scenery, right? So, it's difficult to go into all those places and collect measurements; in a boat, for example, it would take forever. The Amazon itself is 6 million square kilometers, which I think it's square kilometers. It's essentially twice the size of the Mississippi Basin. So, the Amazon is, in a nutshell, like the size of the United States, the continental 48, so it's huge, and trying to collect measurements everywhere would be really challenging, but a satellite can take those measurements for us every month, because satellites usually are on a 30 day repeat cycle, and so every month we can collect measurements. So, now what happened in hydrology is we transform being from being sort of, I don't say data poor, but a small set of data, to now where we have such massive amounts of data, gigabytes to terabytes of data, that we now employ really challenging or really interesting models that dive into the data and analyze it for us. David Staley 10:11 Tell me more about the satellites or the hardware. Are you or other hydrologists involved in designing these? Who's launching them? Doug Alsdorf 10:18 Sure. So, the way it works - it's a long winded story of how you actually create a satellite, so I'll shorten it up - usually it's a 20 year process. David Staley 10:27 Oh. Doug Alsdorf 10:27 Yeah, it is a stunning amount of time. And you start off with what is, essentially, a group of scientists get together and say, we need to collect this kind of measurement, and this kind of measurement, in my case, would be the water elevation and its area. So, you go out to the Allen Creek Reservoir here in town, and you might look across the reservoir and see the water surface and it has an elevation, and as it rains, that elevation might rise, we might expect a lake to collect the rainwater from the surrounding land surface and cover more area. So, we recognize that lakes, rivers, and wetland areas collect water as well as allow it to leave the lake, and so we can collect elevations in area. This was an important measurement we decided we needed a couple decades ago. Okay, so that was step one. Step two, then, is to convince our colleagues, who are literally, you know, hundreds to thousands of other scientists around the world, that this is also an important measurement. Next step is then to convince the engineers that - and these would be the radar engineers, the electrical engineers - that this is an important measurement, and then ask them, can you collect such a measurement, can you make this thing? And then it becomes a round robin process of figuring out, well, what kind of resolutions do we need and so on and so on. It gets very technical. And then finally, you take this before your space agencies, in our case, in the U.S. would be NASA. And of course, there's other groups of scientists and engineers also proposing and NASA has a limited budget, and so you have to come before them and say, but pick us, pick us. And so, it's a very wonderful process of careful peer review, careful selection, and eventually you do get selected, and then it's more refinement of the technology, until finally you get to, as we say, the pounding metal stage, where you're actually, that's the terms we use, where you're actually creating the satellite, and then it gets launched, and then you collect measurements. David Staley 12:21 Is it too simplistic to say that satellites are to the hydrologist as the telescope or the observatory is to the astronomer? Doug Alsdorf 12:27 I think that's probably a fair analogy. Now, that's.... I should back up and say that my my colleagues, who love to do field work, and I deeply respect their work, would say, yes, that satellite is wonderful, but you still need to have the ground truth. You still need to have the person with the hip waders, so to speak, who is wandering out into the wetland and actually looking, and we do. We need the people in the boat. We need this ground truthing, and I could go into lots of detail about that, but it is an important assessment to have. David Staley 13:00 Your most recent work involves studying the water cycle in the Congo Basin in Africa. Tell us a little more about this research. Doug Alsdorf 13:06 So, I was deeply involved - I guess I'm going to give a long winded professorial answer, I'll try to shorten this up - I was deeply involved in a satellite mission, and then my late wife died, and I thought I need to spend more time with my son so that I could be local here with him. I couldn't be jetting off to Europe to go partner with the French Space Agency and doing all this sort of stuff, so I needed to find science that I could do via the internet. Isn't this amazing, right? And so, I emailed Raphael Tshimanga, and Raphael had published a paper one of our preeminent journals, and I just emailed him, I didn't know him. And he had published a really wonderful paper on the Congo and its hydrology, and I emailed him and said, you know, can we exchange some emails. That started about ten years ago, and from there, we built a wonderful collaboration that now has grown to over a hundred scientists where we published this monograph, this took ten years to publish this 600 page monograph that has 28 chapters, so 28 papers, authored by over a hundred people , including 41 from Sub Saharan Africa, people who literally live and work in Sub Saharan Africa. And so it was a wonderful thing that all started and grew because we could email to each other and now offer our communications that way. We did get together in Washington, DC, four years ago as a group, and we were well funded by NSF, by NASA, by the university here and other entities in Europe who helped fund us to bring us together, and we had face to face conversation. So yeah, the internet allowed all that. David Staley 14:44 What have you learned about the water cycle in the Congo Basin? Doug Alsdorf 14:48 So, I had spent years also studying the Amazon, and in my mind, in my naive mind - and I'd been to the Amazon, and my colleagues who study the Amazon, it was this massive group of people have been studying the Amazon for decades - and in my naive mind, I thought, well, I know the Amazon, it's a big, green, wet leafy place, and the Congo, a hundred million years ago, they were stuck together - it's the same place. It's a big, green, wet leafy place, this should be easy. I'll just go to the Congo, via the Internet and my satellites, right, and I will work with them. Oh, my. Rather different place. Rather different place. The Congo has many fascinating things. For one thing, its rainfall is less than the Amazon, approximately about 60% that of the Amazon, yet its evaporation is about the same as the Amazon. And so, that's an interesting thing. Its area is about the size of the Mississippi Basin, but the river size is on the order of two to three times, closer to three times the size of the Mississippi River. So, when you're, you know, getting in your car, as my son and I will do, and we'll drive cross country, you cross the Mississippi River. Well, there's hardly any bridges across the Congo. I know of one bridge across the Congo. So, it's a massive River. It's the second largest river in the world, after the Amazon, but like I say, two to three times the size of the Mississippi. Lots of rainfall there compared to what we experience here in the Midwest. It's a tropical system. So, it's water cycle is driven by precipitation, by evaporation, the sun beats down, so to speak, upon this region, and of course, there's lots of transpiration out of the plants that are growing there. David Staley 16:37 Transpiration meaning...? Doug Alsdorf 16:38 So leaves, you know, take in water. We all know we have to water our plants to make them grow. The leaves take in that water and then emit gaseous water, and so we call it evapotranspiration. And so, the plant needs the water to grow its roots and so on, and then emits some of the water back out through its leaves. It's part of the photosynthetic process. And so, some of these plants give back the water to the atmosphere, and then the rest of the water runs off the land in the rivers or soaks into the ground. Eva Dale 17:09 Did you know that 23 programs in the Ohio State University, College of Arts and Sciences, are nationally ranked as top 25 programs, with more than ten of them in the top ten? That's why we say the College of Arts and Sciences is the intellectual and academic core of the Ohio State University. Learn more about the college at artsandsciences.osu.edu. David Staley 17:34 We sometimes talk about the importance of the Amazon for things like climate change, the "lungs of the earth". Should we talk about the Congo Basin in the same way? Doug Alsdorf 17:43 This is such a fascinating thing, and carbon is a little outside of my expertise, but I do appreciate it very much, because carbon is connected to water. Some of my dear, dear colleagues at UC Santa Barbara, at University of Washington - I was at UCSB for several years, and it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience there, where they taught me of how to do hydrology. And so, my colleagues there, John Melack and Jeff Ritchie and Laura Hess, amongst others, discovered, 20 years ago they discovered that the water in the Amazon is actually giving carbon dioxide back to the atmosphere. The gas is literally bubbling out of the water. This was a stunning revelation. David Staley 17:44 Indeed. Doug Alsdorf 17:44 In the Amazon, there's the Amazon River, and the fourth largest river in the world is called the Negro River, which is Portuguese for black, meaning it's loaded with carbon. When a river is dark colored, it has lots of organic material in it. And what they discovered that is that there was ten times more carbon bubbling out of the water back into the atmosphere - you can't see it, it's an invisible gas - than what you could see in that black river, the carbon in the black river. So, this was a stunning discovery that they made, and they've since built upon that. And now we wonder, what's going on in the Congo? It's a big, green, wet, leafy place, it has a lot of carbon being emitted, it has a huge swamp area. What's happening there? Well, we have far, far fewer measurements there, and that truly does require measurements. There are carbon measuring satellites up in space, but again, we always need to have the in situ measurements to the in place measurements to verify what we see. And so, we are just really getting that going. There's a few researchers around the world, not many, who are studying the Congo carbon that's coming out. David Staley 19:28 You told me, before we started recording, that you have had only one true eureka moment. And it occurred to me, in over, what, 170 interviews I've done, I've never discussed eureka moments with anyone, so you have to tell us about this eureka moment. Doug Alsdorf 19:43 I would like to think that my advisor who discovered subduction zones would be proud of me, right? We tend to think of it that way as grad students, we want our advisors to be proud of us, and that's a wonderful treat. And so, I went from Cornell, where my PhD was in seismology, and fortunately, the people at UCSB hired me to do analysis of synthetic aperture radar data. It is radar on a satellite, and it turns out the algorithms we use to process radar data from a satellite are essentially the same as the algorithms we use in seismology, it's a sort of really interesting thing. And so I picked up on this, and one day, it was actually an evening, I was sitting in the in front of the computer. This was back in the day that we still had computer screens instead of laptops, right? And so, I was sitting in front of the computer in my office, and I said, well, I think I'll use this space shuttle data and look at this data. And Jack had taught us this, he said, if you want to make a discovery, there's a few keys to making a valid discovery. One is to go where other people have not gone before. Well, there's not a lot of people studying the Amazon, still quite a few, okay, so it was kind of fit that. But then he said, rework old data using new methods. That's another way. Well, I had this space shuttle data, and plenty of people had gone over the space shuttle data in the years before me. It had gone, oh, about five, six years before I'd gotten a hold of the data. And so I said, okay, I'll rework it using these new tools that I had become familiar with. And of course, the rule was you shouldn't be able to do what I was doing. And so, I was sitting in front of the computer and I analyzed the data, and then I was able to see what's called the interferometric phase, which is just a fancy way of saying subtracting two satellite pictures - take a picture of the earth on day one, come back on day two, take another picture of the earth, subtract the two - and when you do that, everything should remain the same. Everything should be exactly the same. You take a picture of the Earth, it should be the same in both pictures, unless something moved. Turns out the water surface moved, and we didn't think you should be able to make the measurement I was able to do. The reason why I was able to do is because the water was beneath trees, and what we needed was for this radar pulse to come out of the space shuttle, scatter around the trees, scatter around the water, and come back to the Space Shuttle. And it was a very unique environment which that occurred, and I was able to demonstrate that subtracting the two images and making this measurement, it was possible. And I can still remember sitting in front of my computer going, wait a minute, that can't be, and I was double checking and triple checking, and then I can remember calling up my buddy, who I've been friends with forever and ever - he's now an endowed professor at Brown, and he was at UCLA at the time - I remember calling up Larry and saying, yeah, I don't believe this is happening, I can't believe this, and he's like, you better really work on this, you might have something, right? And so, it was really special, even now I'm getting tingly at how happy I am with that. Well, and what was the impact of this? I mean, I know subduction, it could completely change the way we think about geology. Well, you know, Jack's discovery, of course, was world setting and all those sorts of things. Mine was more local. So, this moment allowed us to realize, as we then used other satellites, not just the space shuttle, but there's other radar satellites. And so, we were able to do this technique over other places in the Amazon. What we were able to map out is that the Amazon does not behave like a bathtub. Here's what we think: you take the river, it fills up with water, it spills over the banks and goes out into the wetland, and then as the river water goes down, the wetland, drains back into the river, classical view of a floodplain, and that's the models we used, and what we were able to show using this satellite measuring tool, we were able to measure water level changes. So, the water level is going up and down in the floodplain. We were able to show that it's patchwork, there'll be patches. One patch of the floodplain will be going down at a slower rate than another patch of the floodplain, and so it's not this even bathtub everywhere, different pockets of the floodplain, gaining and losing water at a slightly different rate than other places in the floodplain, and that became fascinating for ecology studies and carbon studies, as well as the hydrologists. David Staley 23:54 Did you know from boyhood that you were going to be an earth scientist? And otherwise, how did you end up as an earth scientist? Doug Alsdorf 24:01 No, again, you know, when my students ask these kinds of questions, I go to the long winded professorial answer. But the short version is that I had a job at the time, and of course, it was one of those sort of jobs that just wasn't really taking me anywhere. And one night, I sat down and I was reading, - this was in my mid 20s - and I sat down, I was reading a book by Stephen Hawking, I think was the brief moment of time or brief moment of history, something like that. David Staley 24:28 "A Brief History of Time". Doug Alsdorf 24:29 "Brief History of Time", right, as the joke goes, Stephen Hawking invented time. So and I, of course, had no clue what he was talking about, but I was so fascinated by this, and I thought, why can't I go do science? I want to try. My bachelor's degree was in geology, and so I was doing environmental science work, and I wasn't being fulfilled in that. And so, from that sort of moment, I decide, okay, let's go get a science degree. And it was a stepwise process that led me into seismology. It wasn't some sort of, oh my goodness, I just have to study this. It was more... I just was interested largely in the computer programming of it all. And this was at a time in the early 90s when graphical computer interfaces became available to us. Prior to this, we had programming done on cards. You'd have this deck of cards that you'd feed in the computer, and that annoyed me. But as soon as it became graphical on the computer screen, I was like, oh my goodness, this is fun. I like the logic of computer programming. And then I became engaged in seismology, I was like, well, this is fascinating, we get to learn about earthquakes. And so, it was the tool that engaged me into the process of learning about seismology. And I suppose you want to learn, how did I go from seismology to hydrology? David Staley 25:45 Very much so. Doug Alsdorf 25:46 So, okay, here's a human story. And as scientists, we... tend to forget that we're human, right? We stand as lecturers in front of students, we just want to sort of babble on about our science, but there's a human element to all of us. And at the time, I was deeply in love with a woman who became my wife, and she was about to move across the country to California to get her MBA, and I thought, oh my goodness, I can't let this happen. I can't leave, you know, and wave goodbye to her. I'm in love, I must follow. The smartest thing ever did was follow her to California. And so, at the time, I had just graduated my PhD from Cornell, and I was trying so hard to find a job, a postdoctoral job, a research scientist job, a faculty job. And I tell students this, I applied to 80, eight zero jobs, and didn't get any over a span of two years. This was in the mid 90s, and I thought, I don't care. I'm going to follow her to California, and I'll figure it out from there. And my dear friend, Larry, Professor Larry Smith, he's like I say at Brown now, I said to him, Larry, you got to help me out, you got to help me out, right, as we do, we network and beg our friends. And he said, well, okay, I see there's something going on at UC Santa Barbara. They need someone with your skill set, your computer programming skill set. He put in a good call, I visited with them, and they took a flyer on me, so to speak. They said, okay, we'll give you a shot. You're a seismologist, but you can process this data, we'll see if you can actually learn the hydrology as well. I have remained friends with my colleagues from UCSB for 30 years. It was friendships that drove me into these directions, friendships with other people. David Staley 27:25 Tell us what's next for your research, please. Doug Alsdorf 27:28 So what's next is I am probably going to, slowly, over the next few years, evolve into semi-retirement, and so I will pass this baton, so to speak. In fact, what I really tried to do in studying the Congo was to energize my colleagues, to provide them with all these connections that I had, that I developed over the years, particularly with NASA, try to connect my colleagues with their opportunities, try to get them to just do as their discoveries, and let me get out of the way. And so, I've been really pleased to see the growth in Congo research that has happened over the past ten years. For years, it had been... there were two barriers. There were two barriers to Congo research, and the one barrier was economic, and the other barrier is language. So, actually, as it turns out, if you unravel time all the way back to the 50s, the Congo was this place where many people went. The movie "African Queen" was filmed there. David Staley 28:28 That's right, yeah. Doug Alsdorf 28:29 Bogart won his only Oscar, I believe, for that movie. It was filmed in the Congo, and the Amazon was a foreign place. That is now, that switched over this over the span of decades. So, there are people who have been studying the Congo, particularly from France and Belgium, and then, of course, my colleagues in the Congo. What we did in publishing this monograph was give them a voice, an English voice, actually, because they all speak French. And so, we gave them an English voice as well as a French voice. In fact, the monograph is in both English and French. This is a first ever for what we call the American Geophysical Union; it's not a union, it's a society of scientists, 60,000 members, at least, worldwide. I believe, don't quote me, but I believe we're the largest Science society of all sciences, and so it's extremely important for anyone, a community of scientists, to publish and be aware and be a part of AGU. That's what we did. Through the monograph, we connected AGU scientists from around the world, as well as our Congo colleagues, to the world, and we broke down the language barrier by helping them publish in English and also publishing in French. This was a first ever for an AGU to publish in French. So, we've broken down that language barrier, and it's free. This monograph is free, and if you're in the Congo, you can click on the internet, download the volume and read it in your language and understand what's happening. It's empowerment, then, it's knowledge that can be transferred to new students, new people trying to study, so that's very powerful. And if you'll forgive me, I'll continue with the other part, which is the economic barrier. So, the economic barrier: in order to provide funding, you also must find researchers. And so, a researcher here in the U.S., for example, would go to NSF or to NASA to seek funding to study the Congo, but they would need to have colleagues in the Congo. Now, we've provided that avenue. We've provided the connections, and it's a beautiful thing to see happening, where I can step out of the way and let the growth happen before me, where colleagues from the Congo, colleagues from the U.S., partnering together, writing their proposals to seek funding to study the Congo, that's wonderful. In fact, it's already succeeded where my colleagues from the UK have used their version of the NSF to fund research in the Congo, and they're already been highly successful. So, it's working already. David Staley 30:55 Doug Alsdorf, thank you. Thank you. Eva Dale 30:56 Voices from the Arts and Sciences is produced and recorded at The Ohio State University, College of Arts and Sciences Technology Services Studio. Sound engineering by Scott Sprague. Produced by Doug Dangler. I'm Eva Dale. Transcribed by https://otter.ai