VoE - Jason Rawls === Jason Rawls: [00:00:00] While I was teaching, I was still producing, doing music, and I'm keeping hip hop, my music side, separate from teaching, because I think it'll be a distraction for my students. On the weekends, , I'm dressed in my hip hop clothes, I'm out DJing a party or doing something, and then monday morning, I'm in my tie and my shirt, Hello class, good afternoon, right? Kept it a secret, but my students knew. My students said, you know, Mr. Rawls you're hiding something, and they pulled it outta me, and what I realized was when I let them know my authentic hip hop self, I was able to make stronger connections with them. Jen Farmer: From the heart of the Ohio State University on the Oval, this is Voices of Excellence from the College of Arts and Sciences, with your host David Staley. Voices focuses on the innovative work of Arts and Sciences faculty and staff. With departments as wide ranging as art, astronomy, chemistry and [00:01:00] biochemistry, physics, emergent materials and mathematics, and languages, among many others, the college always has something exciting happening. Join us to find out what's new, now. David Staley: Joining me today in the ASC Marketing and Communication Studio is Jason Rawls, Assistant Professor of Hip Hop in the School of Music and in the Department of African and African American Studies at the Ohio State University, College of the Arts and Sciences. He is a hip hop musician, producer, DJ, educator, and speaker, having emerged in the late 1990s underground hip hop scene, and contributed to projects such as Black Star's debut album. He is a recipient this year of the Ronald and Deborah Ratner Distinguished Teaching Award and the Barbara and Sheldon Pinchuk Arts-Community Outreach Award. Dr. Rawls, thank you for joining us on Voices today. Jason Rawls: Thank you so much for having me. David Staley: Well, and I want to begin with the work you are doing with hip hop studies in education. Jason Rawls: Yes. David Staley: In particular, you're interested in how hip hop can be employed as [00:02:00] a relational tool. Tell us a little bit more about what you mean by this. Jason Rawls: Well, exactly. Well, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here and talk a little bit about how hip hop education matters, and that's really the big deal. When I graduated college, I started out as a business student like, okay, so I have a business degree. David Staley: Oh, alright. Jason Rawls: And so people were like, uh, really? How did you get here? But business just wasn't for me, and so, after some toiling and trying to figure it out, I gave my shot at education and I taught fifth grade. David Staley: Ooh, oh man. Jason Rawls: Right? So that's how I got into education, and my first week of teaching fifth grade, I called home to a parent and that parent said, Hey, look, from 7:30 to 3:30, he's your problem, and I was like, oh, okay. And that's where I realized that these students were my babies, and it kind of changed my whole [00:03:00] pathway and how I did everything. While I was teaching, I was still, I was producing, doing music, that kind of thing. I'm very blessed to do music, but music wasn't a consistent payment, so the education thing was consistent, right? And so I'm teaching and I'm keeping hip hop, my music side, separate from teaching, because I think it'll be a distraction for my students. And, I remember thinking, yeah, I can't let them know that I do music and I DJ so, you know, on the weekends, you know, I'm dressed in my hip hop clothes, I'm out, I might be in New York or Los Angeles DJing a party or doing something, and then Sunday night, I'm back, monday morning, I'm in my tie and my shirt, Hello class, good afternoon, right? Kept it a secret, but my students knew. My students said, you know, Mr. Rawls, there's something about you're hiding something, there's something there. And they pulled it outta me, and what I realized was when [00:04:00] I let them know my authentic hip hop self, I was able to make stronger connections with them. And what I realized was these students are hip hop. This generation, this youth culture that we deal with now, they know hip hop, it's like second nature to them. David Staley: Mm-hmm. Jason Rawls: And so, when I was able to speak to them on that level, it made our connection stronger and I was able to build stronger relationships with them. So, when other teachers were struggling with students, I didn't have those same problems, and I realized, wait a minute, it's this hip hop thing that we have in common. Now granted, they were listening to something a little different than I was, right? I might listen to some Rakim or something, and they're listening to "Lil" whoever, or "Young", whoever, right, whoever the latest rapper is. But, what we had in common was the love of hip hop and hip hop culture, and once I realized that I could use that as a starting point to [00:05:00] help build relationships. That's where the idea of youth culture pedagogy and using hip hop in education came along. David Staley: So what does that look like? What does that pedagogy look like? Jason Rawls: Sure. David Staley: In a practical way, in a classroom. Jason Rawls: In a practical way, a lot of people think that using hip hop in the classroom is just, you know, the teacher rapping to the students or letting the students rap, and that's not really what it is. It's about the aesthetic of hip hop. It's about letting the students be who they are. So, what we're trying to do is, what we're saying is, when your students come in and they got their hat tilt to the side, that's okay, that's their hip hop side coming out, and let them be who they are and use that to get to know them. And here's the best thing about it, what I learned: I don't know everything there is to know about hip hop, and I don't know everything there is to know about youth culture, but who knows youth culture better than our students, right, so the students would teach me, and so the students took pride in showing, Hey, Mr. Rawls, this is how you should wear your shoes, this is [00:06:00] how you do your laces. This is how you should wear, you know, your hat tilt tilted to the side or whatever. And it made me say, oh, this is them sharing with me, so then when I said, okay, guys, open your books and we're going to do blah, blah, blah, they listened to me because I in turn listened to them, and I gave them that voice and allowed them to be who they are in the classroom. David Staley: Hmm. As I was thinking about this interview, I thought, boy, hip hop is more than just music, right? Jason Rawls: Mm-hmm. David Staley: I mean, it really is a culture. Jason Rawls: It really is. David Staley: Give us a sense, when you use the term aesthetic to talk about culture. What do we mean by hip hop culture? Jason Rawls: Hip hop culture is really... there's four main elements to hip hop and they are, in order, graffiti, DJing, b-boying or break dancing. Gotcha, right, see, I'm giving you the definitions. And the last one is MCing or rapping, right? And so, when you think of hip hop, the majority of people think of hip hop, they think of the music. David Staley: Mm-hmm. Jason Rawls: They think of, and that's the combination of the DJing [00:07:00] and the rapper, right, but that's not all there is to hip hop. There's also a fifth element that we bring in there that came about later that we call knowledge, or knowledge of self, and this is the idea of knowing who you are and expressing yourself and being okay to be who you are and express who you are because you know who you are. And the thing about hip hop, hip hop says... see, what I love about hip hop is it's not about race, ethnicity, color, religion, none of that matters if you step into the cipher - do you wanna ask me what a cipher is? David Staley: I am, yes. Jason Rawls: A cipher in hip hop is just basically a circle, right, and you'll see in like an Eminem movie, _8 Mile _or something_,_ the guys are rapping and they're standing in a circle; that's because everybody's equal in the cipher, and that's what we would use in our classroom, right, because you put your students in a cipher, and you stand in a cipher as a teacher, you show them that, Hey, I'm equal with you. I'm not standing above you, I'm [00:08:00] not below you, i'm not above you, we're together. And that's kind of the same idea of hip hop, this idea that, you know, when you're in that cipher, whether it's b-boying or break dancing, whether it's rapping or whatever you're doing, it doesn't matter what color you are, what race you are, whatever, you just have to have the skills. That's all we care about in hip hop. And so, with that different mentality, it's this idea of, oh, wait a minute, it's not about, you know, how much money you have or, you know, oh, you're poor, you can't participate. No, if you're good, you're good, and that's what's respected. David Staley: Tell us about your book _Youth Culture Power_. You started us on this path, but I'd like to hear more about the book. Jason Rawls: Sure. _Youth Culture Power_ was this idea that my partner John Robinson, and I came up with. We are actually a rap group, so, our first album was called_ 1960s Jazz Revolution Again_, and so our first album was pretty much a history lesson about the history of jazz, through a [00:09:00] hip hop lens, right? And so, we were talking and trying to figure out, what's our second album going to be about, and the thing that was so cool about it, I was already a teacher and John had just started teaching and this was around, oh, maybe 2007, 8, I don't remember the year, but John said, Hey, my students, and he was teaching in Brooklyn at the time, my students are bringing in these little thing and they're called fidget spinners. I said, wait a minute, my students are bringing in fidget spinners, and we realized at that point that these students, they have their own culture. They have something where they started flipping the bottle and they were doing it in Brooklyn and Columbus, Ohio at the same time. And so, we realized like through social media, through their music, their everything that they encompass, they were all sharing the same things and we thought, why can't we as educators tap into that? What better way to reach someone than to reach them [00:10:00] through something that they like? And that's how we started. That's how we started this idea of youth culture pedagogy, this idea of teaching students through their own youth culture. David Staley: You are also working on a concept that you call " listening through a hip hop ear or a producer's ear." Jason Rawls: Yeah. David Staley: You have to tell me more about what this means. Jason Rawls: Sure, sure. So, as a hip hop producer, I've been doing this for about 25 years, and when I hear music, I hear it differently. David Staley: Differently than when you were younger? Jason Rawls: No, differently than I think people that are just listening to enjoy music. David Staley: Differently than how I might listen to it? Jason Rawls: Than you. That is correct, because when I'm hearing it, I'm dissecting it and thinking, wow, I hear that bass line, I wonder if that bass line was brought up more. What would this Miles Davis song sound like with no drums? Does that make sense? David Staley: Yeah, yeah. Jason Rawls: This is how we hear it, and so it's an idea of, [00:11:00] and it really comes from this idea that, in hip hop that we call digging into crates. Digging into crates comes from the earliest conceptions of hip hop, where you talk about the earliest hip hop DJs looking for different songs and sounds and music that weren't super popular that could rock the party, right? The idea was to find what we call a break beat. A break beat is a part where the drummer is drumming on a song and the rest of the instruments kind of take a little break, and it's that drum, that drum that moves and gets you excited. And so, this is what the DJs in the early seventies were doing, this is how the break dancing came about. They were dancing to the breakbeat, break dancing. David Staley: Mm-hmm. Jason Rawls: B-boys, this is where that comes from. It's the idea of looking for that song that nobody's heard, I'm going to drop that [00:12:00] song at the party and people are gonna be like, what is this? So, it's this idea of finding that gem, that unheard of song, that rare record, that rare vinyl record. And so, this is a tradition in hip hop that we kind of sort of gravitated to, a lot of hip hop producers, because the idea, when you're making a hip hop beat, is to find drums or samples that no one's really heard of before. The idea is to almost mine through those crates of records, and that's where that idea of crate digging or digging in the crates comes from. And so, that's what my interest is, my research, is how these producers could go through and find these songs and these music, and how do they reimagine it, how do they change it up through technology of drum machines and samplers and nowadays computers, right, digital audio workstations, DAWs, and [00:13:00] how do they take this and create new music? So, how do I hear a Miles Davis song or a John Coltrane or Sun Ra, right, and I hear, I hear one of those songs and I say, Ooh, how about if I put this through this sampler and this drum machine and I take drums from maybe this Bill Withers breakbeat, and I chop that up and manipulate it to create something new? So, it's this idea of digging in the crates here, manipulating it with the drum machine and the equipment to create new music, and that's what hip hop culture is. And it's amazing, I always say that, and people say, oh, well, you know, that's stealing or that's copyright infringement, and it is, it is copyright infringement, but that's why you pay to clear the sample, right? But think about where our culture is. You ever heard of AI? David Staley: Sure. Jason Rawls: Sure you have, right? AI has the same basic principle. It takes something, it mines the internet for all of these different thoughts or [00:14:00] ideas that people have put out there in the past, it manipulates it through their system, and then it gives you something new; it's just like hip hop, just like making a hip hop beat. David Staley: So as we've been talking, I've just been musing for the first time, I think. So, there's the performer, who's a certain type of creator, there's the composer. Jason Rawls: Sure. David Staley: And then there's the producer, who's another sort of creator I suppose. Jason Rawls: Definitely a creator. It's no different than when you think about taking a little piece of this, a little piece of that, and you put it together to make a collage to create a new work of art. That's what it is. It's the same, it's the same idea except we do it with music and we hear music differently. We hear music in a way that makes us say, that's the part, that's the piece, and that's what my research is about, that's what I'm trying to figure out. How do these producers find that piece of music that gets them excited to say this can be become something new. [00:15:00] That's the exciting part. David Staley: What's that research look like? Are you writing a book, or does this take some other sort of form? Jason Rawls: It's a little bit of both. I'm actually writing a book right now that talks a little bit about my own process as a producer, and I'm going to share, we're gonna talk about like, what I call a producer's commentary. You remember DVD, old DVDs when you used to watch it and you, you loved the movie so much, you were so engrossed that you went through the menu of the DVD and you said, Hey, I wanna watch this producer's commentary, I wanna see how they came up with this idea. What made them use a mechanical shark in Jaws? Why did they do that? I wanna hear Steven Spielberg talk about that, what did he, what was he thinking? That's what I'm gonna do with the music. So, I'm going to write about this idea of digging into crates, I'm gonna talk about it, and then the book is also gonna have what we call an eBook component, right, where you can actually, you're gonna hear some finished beats that I made, then I'm gonna play the sample for you so that you can hear the sample, and then I'm gonna [00:16:00] have a producer's commentary that talks you through my process and how I created that new beat that you heard. David Staley: Well, you answered my question, I was gonna ask, is it hard to write about producing? I mean, who was it that one said writing about music is like dancing about architecture? Jason Rawls: Yes. David Staley: Is it hard to write about this? Jason Rawls: It is, I would definitely say that. It's difficult because I haven't seen it done this way yet. But that's what hip hop is, it's about trying new things and doing things differently. We never really do things the regular way, and I'm sure you had Dr. View on here, he probably said the same exact thing. We just don't think in the traditional academics, right, sphere of how things work. To me, I have to let you hear the music. I can't just write about music and there's no aural component, it doesn't make sense. And so, I'm going to do, there's gonna be writing to it, right, however, the book is also gonna include those parts so you can hear the music and you can hear and judge for yourself, how did he do that, how did he come up, what [00:17:00] was his producer's ear like? David Staley: So, you said a moment ago that AI is starting to do a lot of these things, you know, sampling, remixing. As a producer, are you concerned about AI? Jason Rawls: Oh, no, not at all. I don't worry about new technology. You know, I always liken it to when I'm talking to colleagues or speaking with somebody about AI and they express fears, I ask them, and usually they're my age or even a little older, and I ask them, do you remember the fear of the calculator? Think about that, right? David Staley: I'm old enough to remember that, sure.. Jason Rawls: There you go, right? So when the calculator came out, people thought, oh no, we're never gonna be able to teach these kids math again. They don't have to, they don't have to think anymore, but that's not the case. Think about it in the same terms. We eventually learned how to use the calculator as a tool. Eventually, we will learn how to use AI as a tool, and that's our job as educators, is to teach our students to use it as a tool, not as the end all be all, and let them understand that there are flaws with, with [00:18:00] AI. You know, if you use, say for instance, like a chat GPT or something like that, you have to read that. It's not gonna be, you know, perfect, and, as a teacher, I'm sure you've experienced, like reading some of your students' work and saying... yeah. David Staley: Oh yes. Jason Rawls: Me too. David Staley: Are you using AI in any of your work? Jason Rawls: I am not. I'm not using AI to help create the music, because that's exactly what we do, we already do that. That's what I do. I go to the record store once a week. No matter what city I'm in, if I go to another city, my first order of business is going to a record store, I'm going to search for vinyl. It's just a part of my DNA, it's who I am, right? So, I dig in the crates to find different music, different samples, songs from all around the world. I ingest it, take it in, go through my computer, work on something new, create something new out the end, and that, and that's just what I do. David Staley: I introduced you as a Professor of Hip Hop Studies, and I know that [00:19:00] you, you arrived at Ohio State to help develop this program. Jason Rawls: Definitely. David Staley: I'd like to talk a little bit about, what is hip hop studies, and also, what are your goals and ambitions - Jason Rawls: sure. David Staley: For this program? Jason Rawls: Yeah. We see hip hop studies as twofold, actually. We're looking at it from a standpoint of being a practitioner, so we have classes for students who want to learn how to make beats. David Staley: Mm-hmm. Jason Rawls: This fall, fall 2025, we will have the first DJ course at The Ohio State University, so if you want to learn how to be a dj, this is the course for you. If you've watched people do that and said, wow, I wonder, now's your chance, right? And that's exciting, it's bringing this hip hop discourse, this idea of actually getting your hands dirty, right, that idea. We're hoping to advance it down the line to where we can have rappers and MCs, learn how to be an MC, and also even get to the point of graff, I'm working on trying to speak to the arts [00:20:00] department, where students can learn all of the elements of hip hop. And that's the practitioner side, we've also got a side where you can learn about the culture. What I've often found is I always have students who come back to me and say, Hey, I have a journalism degree or I have a, I don't know, a philosophy degree or whatever, and in my line of work, I talk with people all the time and I learn different things from your hip hop course that helps me navigate those spaces. Because here's what you have to understand: many people in corporate America now, or in government or in different positions, they grew up with hip hop. David Staley: Mm-hmm. Jason Rawls: Hip hop is 50 years old now, and so people that are in the culture, they think and move with a hip hop lens, and so if you are, say for instance, a journalist and you go to interview someone and you already have knowledge of the four elements of hip hop, you can bring that into your conversation. And so, [00:21:00] that's what I've found, that some students want to learn the culture of hip hip hop and they want to be able to use that, coupled with whatever major that they're working on, and so we've got those two options. David Staley: Hmm. Where did you learn to DJ? You didn't take a class, I assume? Jason Rawls: I didn't, I did not. David Staley: Probably because it didn't exist. Jason Rawls: It didn't exist. You know, the thing is I fell in love with hip hop probably in like second grade, and I realized that it was something that I wanted to do by fourth grade, and so I just started tinkering around and it, you know, 20 years of doing it, that's how I learned. And so, I actually started DJing in the early nineties, just as, because I loved hip hop, i, I rapped, I was a break dancer, only thing I haven't done is graff. I'm not an art guy, but you know, I said, Hey, why not? You know, I already make beats, let's learn how to DJ too. David Staley: What are your goals and ambitions? Where would you [00:22:00] like to see hip hop studies? Jason Rawls: I would really like to see this, right now we're aiming for a minor, a hip hop studies minor. Jen Farmer: Voices of Excellence is produced and recorded at The Ohio State University College of Arts and Sciences Marketing and Communications Studio. More information about the podcast and our guests can be found at go.osu.edu/voices. Voices of Excellence is produced by Doug Dangler. I'm Jen Farmer. Jason Rawls: I'd like to see this grow into some type of major, still trying to work that out, not quite exactly sure where we want to take it, but our goals and ambitions first off, is to get a strong, thriving hip hop community here at the Ohio State University. And, coupled with a minor, I think that would, that's a great start to give students an opportunity to see what they can do with hip hop. The thing about it is, we're more so set on helping students understand that hip hop mentality, and that's something that I've been talking about recently [00:23:00] as well, this idea that it's a hip hop way of thinking about stuff. One of the things we talk about in hip hop is this idea of if someone tells you no, find another way, and that's kind of... it's almost like what teachers do, right? Think about teachers in districts where there's low budgets or they don't have the resources that they need, and so the teacher finds a way to get enough pencils or the book bags or whatever they need for their classroom. It's that mentality of figuring it out, is what I like to call it. It's like, we don't take no for an answer, we are gonna figure out a way. David Staley: Hmm. Well, I introduced you as a musician and an educator and a DJ. I failed to also mention that you are a broadcaster, you host a show on Sirius, "Crate Missions with Lord Sear and J Rawls". You have to tell me more about this program. Jason Rawls: Sure, sure. This is part of my research where we bring prominent producers, hip hop producers on the air with Lord Sear and [00:24:00] myself on Shade 45, and we do it once a month, and we have the guests talk about their process. What I'm trying to understand is what I've been telling you about that producer's ear, and so we ask some of these famous producers. We've had Da Beatminerz on, we've had Pete Rock on, we've had J Dillas little brother, Illa J on, and we asked them ,what are you looking for when you're looking for that sample? What are you looking for when you're in the crates? That's why we call it "Crate Missions". That's what we say... if I'm going to a city and I'm going to dig for vinyl, we call that a crate mission. I'm on crate mission, so that's what it's about. It's about understanding what these producers are looking for, what are they hearing, what's that, almost that aha moment when they hear a song and they say, I wanna sample that. That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. How do you hear it? Is it a feeling? Is it a chord? Is it notes? What are you looking for? David Staley: Hmm. What's [00:25:00] your secret? How do you get creative people to talk about their process? I say this as someone who, uh, who hosts an interview program. Jason Rawls: You know, I think part of it is, you find people who are passionate about what they do. Most people who are passionate about what they do, they want to talk about it, it excites them, and that's why I was excited to come here and talk with you, because this is what I think about every day, so to be able to verbalize it, sometimes you'll have them talking on air and they're like, you know, I never thought about that. I didn't think about how I went through and dug through the crates. Am I looking at the back of the record for the year? Am I looking for the label? Am I looking for the artist on that record and what instruments did they play, right? And so these are the types of questions that I'm asking them, and it's also exciting them and making them think about their process. So I think that's part of it. David Staley: Hmm. When you, uh, started this journey in hip hop, did you ever see yourself as a PhD, as a [00:26:00] scholar? Jason Rawls: I did not. I never, you know, I was in business. I never thought about myself going into higher education. I think it was a calling for me, and that's why I think I love it so much. The thing that motivates me is I love teaching, genuinely. You know, if I got to a point where they said I couldn't teach anymore, they just wanted me to research, that would be tough for me, and I probably shouldn't say that at an RI institution, but I think because what fuels me is the excitement of the students. Every semester I learn something new from my students, and that makes me think about my work differently, so, that's why I need that fuel. I need those students to ask those new questions. I need those students to, to find excitement. Two semesters ago, I had a student that fell in love with crate digging so much, he started going to every spot that I was. I started seeing him, and I'm like, wait a minute, you're, I see you again. Like, what's going? [00:27:00] He said, I love this. I'm figuring this out. And he doesn't make beats yet, and I, I suspect soon he will start trying to produce and create music. But he loves the hunt of the vinyl and looking for rare records and looking for things that he's been looking for for years, and that that excites him. So, that's where it comes from and that's that excitement that I enjoy. David Staley: Who are your students generally? Not specific names, obviously. Jason Rawls: Yeah, yeah, yeah. David Staley: Who do they tend to be? Jason Rawls: They tend to be from everywhere, all fabrics of the university, from all departments. I've had students from every college because we have a gen ed, right, we're a GE course, so that really allows students to kind of try it out and see, and then what happens is they kind of fall in love with it, and that's how we fill the other classes, because the first course is called " The Art and Politics of Hip Hop". And that course is just kind of a, an umbrella course that teaches a little bit about the culture, a little bit about the music, it kind [00:28:00] of gets you in and draws you into what hip hop culture is really all about. David Staley: Tell us what you're working on now. What's next? Jason Rawls: Oh man. Well, right now I'm working on, I've got three albums coming out. David Staley: Oh, boy. Jason Rawls: Yeah, it's a lot. Two through Javotti Music, which is Talib Kweli's record label through Fat Beats. One with a jazz singer named Solene Velvet, really amazing stuff, that allowed me to stretch my palette a little bit and create a little bit different type of music, which I, I'm excited to share. And then I have an album coming with NICO IS who is Talib Kweli's protege, and that album is amazing. He's a Brazilian born MC, poet, amazing delivery, voice, style. I'm excited about that as well, so, and then I also have a new instrumental album coming where it's just all music, no words, no vocals, just something for you to relax to, study, do your homework or [00:29:00] write your next book. I'm always busy creating music, but also working on this hip hop studies program. So, super excited. David Staley: Jason Rawls. Thank you. Jason Rawls: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Jen Farmer: Voices of Excellence is produced and recorded at The Ohio State University College of Arts and Sciences Marketing and Communications Studio. More information about the podcast and our guests can be found at go.osu.edu/voices. Voices of Excellence is produced by Doug Dangler. I'm Jen Farmer.